Annabelle White [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Coaching and Officiating podcast series. My name is Annabelle White and I am joining you from Eora country. I am the coaching advisor for the coaching and officiating team at the Australian Sports Commission. Over this series, we will look at what it takes to modernise Australia's coaching and officiating system. Each podcast, we will be joined by a special guest or guests who will share experiences and practical tips on their topics. Today we will be discussing creating inclusive and respectful environments in community sport. Much of these learnings will be relevant to coaches regardless of the gender of your participants. We will be discussing inclusion and respect in sport, what it means to be inclusive, and how coaches can enhance their practice to be more inclusive. We are lucky today to welcome Nicole Mulford and Zoe Avner to the podcast. Nicole, known as Muggles in the roller derby community, is the diversity and inclusion officer at Kingston City Rollers. In their paid work, Muggles is a youth worker working with a diverse range of communities, but has a passion for supporting the queer community. Zoe is a lecturer in sport coaching at Deakin University. Her research and teaching interests are athlete and coach learning and ethical inclusive coaching and athlete development practices. Her work is focussed on supporting sporting organisations to foster more ethical and inclusive sporting environments for all participants. To support coaches working with women and girls in community sport, the Australian Sports Commission is developing a series of resources to support coaches to enhance their practice. Zoe. Nicole, we are thrilled to welcome two individuals to the podcast who both have a wealth of experience, both personal and professional. Welcome.

Zoe Avner [00:01:40] Thanks very much for having me.

Nicole Mugford [00:01:41] Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited.

Annabelle White [00:01:44] Inclusion can mean so much to so many different people. Nicole, what does inclusion mean to you?

Nicole Mugford [00:01:50] I think for me, inclusion is about having a sense of belonging and acceptance. But also understanding that inclusion looks different for different people. And so there's a level of respect in being included in the community. But I kind they have to go hand-in-hand. And so, I think for me, it's about how do we celebrate, all people and the gifts and the skills and the talents that they bring, as well as the challenges that they have and, you know, shaping and holding that, as well as holding a sense of, acceptance for, for people.

Annabelle White [00:02:29] Zoe, what does inclusion mean to you?

Zoe Avner [00:02:32] A lot of overlap with Nicole. I think for me, inclusion is moving beyond having differences or challenges tolerated or accommodated, but rather a place front and centre. When designing, learning and sporting environments, I think that's really key. It's an environment where people feel comfortable, they feel safe, they feel valued and supported. So yeah, like Nicole mentioned, I think it starts with different questions around what does an inclusive environment look like in my specific context? What does it mean for my participants and what can we do to make sure that participants feel supported, and comfortable within my specific context?

Annabelle White [00:03:18] Brilliant. Thank you both for sharing. Nicole, in your five years at the club, you've sat in a variety of positions. Official, volunteer, bench manager. You also sit in the role of Diversity and inclusion officer. Can you explain a bit more about that role of diversity and inclusion officer?

Nicole Mugford [00:03:36] Yeah. So a couple of years ago, our, club leadership were wanting to make sure that we really hit the mark when it came to inclusion. And so, they approached me as someone who was, a queer person and, kind of working in that space of kind of social and community in my professional career and said, what do we do? How do we approach that? Can we create a position? And so from there, we created a position, of diversity and inclusion officer. And that, role basically just helps me to oversee making sure we have initiatives that, I guess celebrate and include people, from diverse backgrounds. So not just members of the LGBTQ plus community, but also, looking at cultural diversity and, disability. So we are spending a lot of time at the moment looking through like, what does neurodiversity look like? Within the sporting context and just ensuring that people have a safe space to go to.

Annabelle White [00:04:43] Zoe, Nicole has just walked us through her role at Kingston City role, as much of it revolves around creating an inclusive environment. There are so many elements which go into creating an inclusive environment. Can you walk us through some of those elements?

Zoe Avner [00:04:58] Nicole touched on a number of them, but I think you know, there’s quite a few layers basically to designing inclusive environments. I think perhaps a good starting point to thinking about the structures and cultures of sport, basically, and within our specific context. So I'm mentioning, ensuring that sport is inclusive to diverse populations, perhaps starting with, considerations around structures and facilities. So how accessible facilities, how gender inclusive are various facilities. Will participants feel safe and welcome within the particular club culture. All very clear policies and guidelines in place around discrimination and fostering a more inclusive and, environment free of discrimination. The role of education as well. And we have well educated staff who are knowledgeable around, how to foster a more inclusive environment. So, these are not necessarily, the question is asking this question is no guarantee, so to speak, but I think it's a good place to start.

Annabelle White [00:06:10] You spoke a little bit there about education and education of people within those environments. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of educating coaches to be inclusive in their practice?

Zoe Avner [00:06:21] I think it's really fundamental. I think it's, really important as well to think about how we kind of pitch education and get buy-in from coaches. So really understanding the benefits, the inclusion and having an affirming and inclusive environment can, can bring participants and coaches included.

Annabelle White [00:06:43] Zoe’s just outlined some of the reasons why education for coaches around inclusion is so important in your position. Why is education for coaches around inclusion so important in creating those inclusive environments?

Nicole Mugford [00:06:59] I think it's really important that we, help educate our coaches because, at least in my club, everyone's a volunteer. So everyone kind of lives their busy lives, which they're doing their best, they're raising their families. They're, you know, involved in their local community, working their jobs. And, they, they mean well and they want to do well, but they don't always know how to do that. And so I think it's, about finding ways to help people to know the right things to say and the right things to do. In order to be able to stand alongside people and to, help people to be their best.

Annabelle White [00:07:40] Nicole, in your volunteer role, how do you personally champion?

Nicole Mugford [00:07:43] Inclusion and inclusion is championed differently depending on what that looks like for, communities. And I guess the need of the person for one of my other roles within the club has been, as the wellbeing officer. And so for me, that's meant, I look over our membership and, you know, check in on people, particularly if they're unwell or if things going on in their family. And, and that's given me that, I guess, extra insight into how to support people. And so, we've had members that have said, oh, like I found my thing when I started and came and tried this sport. But my rent just been increased, and, family's really hard, and I need to put my. I'm a single mum trying to put my boys through school, like, so, like, I won't be able to commit. And so kind of trying to find those ways to go at, oh, I can babysit or bring them along and I'll sit with them on the sidelines while you train and, try to find ways that they can be included that might look different or might be a bit inconvenient, but actually in the main, like in the long run, is beneficial for that individual. But the club as a whole, I think that's been something that's been really exciting to see. And for us to do.

Annabelle White [00:09:08] So being adaptable so that people can find a space and can feel safe and included and like they belong, that's wonderful. Nicole, there's a critical role, and a relationship between respect and inclusion. Can you explain in your own words the relationship between respect and inclusion?

Nicole Mugford [00:09:27] I think you can be respectful without being inclusive, but you can't be inclusive without being respectful. And by that I mean that, to be inclusive means you have to be open to, welcoming and embracing and, creating a place of belonging. And I think, I don't think you can do that without holding a level of respect. For the existence of a person or, their situation. You can be respectful of people. By kind of keeping them at a distance.

Annabelle White [00:10:10] So inclusion almost takes it that step further. You can't have, as you say, you can't have inclusion without respect. Because the two go hand in hand. But you can in fact be respectful. But as you say, keep someone at a distance. Yeah, really, really like that description. Zoe, Nicole just spoke a little bit about the diversity of people within her own sporting organisation. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of the diversity of people within sport, in embracing inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:10:42] Yeah, I think like like Nicole mentioned, that's really, really important. You know, often starts at the leadership structure as well. So having, diverse leaders, who can also emulate, promoting inclusion by being good role models and having that availability of different role models and pathways, which participants can recognise themselves on in, is really critical to, I guess, promoting more inclusive sport space as a whole. So it starts with that diversity, especially within the leadership structure as well, and integrating different viewpoints. I think that's really critical.

Annabelle White [00:11:25] And you've alluded to it there, Zoe, but can you talk a little bit more to the importance of lived experience in embracing inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:11:34] So it is a bit of a cliche, but I think it's often said that you can't be what you can't see. And having the availability of, you know, role models, and then able to recognise oneself in, people around us and, and especially for aspiring coaches, we know that having for example, female role models for, for young girls, getting into and pursuing coaching pathways is really critical. So, yeah, I think being able to recognise oneself and see that diversity is key to kind of. Creating opportunities and encouraging people to pursue pathways that they might not have thought about beforehand.

Annabelle White [00:12:19] Nicole, I'll come to you because I can see that you're nodding. Can you talk a little bit to how in your club you've leveraged lived experience to be a more inclusive space for more people?

Nicole Mugford [00:12:30] For us, particularly in the, I guess, the LGBTQ plus space. We've really worked to, leverage the stories of people in helping to. I guess, help people to be educated in how to be good allies. And. It's formed better, a stronger team. I think, for us, because people have each other's back, both on the track in Derby, but also in life.

Annabelle White [00:13:01] Zoe, you have recently begun researching the role of male allyship in sport coaching to allow more inclusive sports experiences for all genders whilst it's in its infancy. Can you explain this work in a bit more detail?

Zoe Avner [00:13:14] Yes. Our current research, focuses on male allyship and specifically on examining, performance and participation coaches understanding of what gender responsive coaching is and how this their understanding shapes their practices and the impact of these practices on their athletes. So we're really interested in the gendered assumptions that underpin, these practices and, how we can kind of unpack some of these, various assumptions and how that then trickles down into, a diversity of practices and how we can promote more gender responsive coaching practices as a result.

Annabelle White [00:13:59] What will be the impact of this research for community coaches?

Zoe Avner [00:14:03] I think it's really important to understanding how coaches currently form their understanding of what gender is and what being gender responsive means. So we can identify some some gaps and perhaps opportunities to improve understanding and improve our practices around gender responsive coaching for the, for the betterment of athletes of all genders.

Nicole Mugford [00:14:29] I think the idea of allyship is, really important in that coaching experience. I like Zoe how you've done that research. Starting that research around male allyship. I think for us at Kingston, we've done a lot of work around what is, being an active ally look like. Within the, I guess, intersections of your life. And so, we've started to, to kind of help people to understand their role in, passing them like at times when they need to, but also, to holding that when they need to as well. And so kind of that difference between, the role of if you're in the minority group. It's tiring to have to defend for yourself all the time. I guess that minority stress that comes with with that. And so what does I live ship looks like? Standing up for, for those people within those intersections. And I think. Yeah. Really helping our coaches to, I guess, embed that into their language as they then go about. Talking to other people and, as they're training their team to kind of say, hey. Light and being the ones that do that corrective languaging or what that looks like.

Zoe Avner [00:15:55] And I think you've hit it spot on. I think it also ties back to your earlier points around the importance of education. And I think for a lot of coaches, there needs to be kind of a starting point and an education piece there, and they're often unsure as to how to be good allies or develop those practices. So I think that's where the education piece is really critical. And research in informing, new practices around allyship is really critical as well.

Annabelle White [00:16:30] Nicole, in creating an environment which is truly inclusive and respectful, coaches must be self-aware in the first instance. Can you talk to the importance of self-awareness in creating inclusive environments?

Nicole Mugford [00:16:43] So I think this comes back to a bit of that allyship and being active in kind of your education and your learning. Being aware of, I guess, your positioning in society, in the team, in the club, and the privilege that you hold, based on your, your own background and story and experience. And then I think around noticing who else you've got around you in, in that space and in that team, and what are their needs? And so just being really aware that, just because you have access to this and you have or something doesn't necessarily mean the people on your team also have that same access. And so, while that might be inclusive for you, it might not be inclusive for somebody else. And I think yeah, just kind of pointing out to people then. The difference is in making sure that we are holding the policies and things that we have at the forefront. And having a guest opportunity for our members to. Offer feedback and offer that. Yeah. Evaluation so that we know where we might be falling short because obviously you can't see everything necessarily. And, you know, you only know what you know. And so yeah, we do. Often in our league we do monthly vibe checks, and so it's just a quick five minute survey where our members say, on a scale of 1 to 10, how you feeling at the moment? Is it related to your sport? Is it related to outside life? Do you want to talk to anyone about it? What can we do better? And it takes some 20s kind of to fill that in. And, gives us a good picture of how people are feeling within the club. And if there's anything we need to do to further support people.

Annabelle White [00:18:44] So you're hitting it from a multitude of angles. You're giving direct feedback to coaches, you're supplying them with education and resources, and then you're also empowering them to find out more about their participants and using that vibe check as you've as you've, explained. Brilliant. Zoe, an understanding of self is critical in becoming aware of how our own personal biases may impact the environments we create. As a coach, how can coaches better understand their own personal biases?

Zoe Avner [00:19:15] I think first of all, it's important to all of us, for that matter, to appreciate that we're not empty vessels. We weren't born and we didn't grow up in a social vacuum. So it's understanding the power of norms and expectations to shape who we are, social norms and expectations. And from that perspective, gender norms and expectations are very powerful norms and have influenced how we think about, and how we relate to others, basically. So, sport is set up in a very binary way. And kind of sometimes thinking outside of that binary can be quite challenging. So, being able to unpick, how these gender norms and expectations have shaped us is really critical, especially when it comes to coaching assets of different genders. So I think the first step to thinking and practising coaching differently and becoming more, more gender aware is perhaps kind of unpacking some of these kind of gender norms and stereotypes.

Annabelle White [00:20:13] You've spoken and you've alluded to it a little bit there in your explanation. But stereotypes do have a big impact on someone's perception of another person. How do stereotypes contribute to creating environments which are not inclusive?

Zoe Avner [00:20:27] I think stereotypes, be they positive or negative are inherently restrictive and should be kind of unpacked and critiqued and addressed. I think they limit, the range of sorts we can have. They limit the range of practices that we can deploy. And they often have very negative and restrictive implications for participants within our context. So, I think it's quite easy sometimes to just apply blanket approaches, but I think as much as possible, it's important to, recentered individual and understand the diversity of participants in front of us.

Nicole Mugford [00:21:05] Just going to say I think as well, like stereotyping negatively means that people feel like they have to hide something and so they don't come to their community able to be free to be their whole self. And so that energy thats spent trying to hide that, I guess that part of you. Takes up time that you could actually be using to get more strategy in your game or, you know, be a bit of a stronger player. And so, when we allow people to be. More open of who they are rather than stereotyping them and kind of, I guess, forcing people to hide aspects of who they are. Then we actually get better athletes and better participants.

Annabelle White [00:21:57] Nicole, when we spoke about having you on the podcast originally, you spoke about how Kingston City Rollers are unapologetically inclusive. What does that mean for us?

Nicole Mugford [00:22:07] That means that we have a set of values that, we won't apologise for, I guess. And, and that means that we may turn down opportunities or not be involved in things because it doesn't, align with how we how we value. So, for instance, as at Owl Lake, we're an open gender league. And so that means we have people of all genders participating. And, you know, we had an opportunity to be. I don't know what the right phrases, but maybe certified or kind of benchmarked within the Women's Roller Derby Association. And we kind of said, well, to do that would put our men and put our, gender diverse people out. They wouldn't be able to participate in that way. And that's not who we are. And that's and so we may not have as many game opportunities now because we're not certified in that way, but actually we're allowing space for everyone to participate. And that's more important to us than to get those opportunities to play.

Annabelle White [00:23:21] So, Nicole, can you tell us a bit more about your personal journey in the sport? How did you end up becoming a volunteer in roller derby?

Nicole Mugford [00:23:29] So I didn't realise roller derby was a real sport. I had seen it in a movie, with it. I think a lot of people have seen that movie, and I just thought it was a movie sport. I don't know what a movie sport is, but I thought it was a movie sport. And it wasn't until someone one day at a festival skated up to me and handed me a flyer, and I was like, oh, this is a real thing. I'm really interested in going along. And I went along because I was looking for community, and a place to belong. I was at a place in my life where I was, going through questions and challenges within my own journey, around my sexuality and my identity. And, when I rocked up to watch a game, I saw myself there. I saw, what I was trying to work out who I was. I saw that in the people that were there, participating. And so for me, I then knew that was the kind of the community I wanted to be a part of.

Annabelle White [00:24:35] What's been the value to you personally, Nicole? Being able to turn up to a sport and see yourself reflected in who was there.

Nicole Mugford [00:24:45] It really gave me the confidence to challenge the ideas that I had about who I was and come to a place of acceptance for myself. And so, I think because of the community I felt like I was able to come out and, able to express myself and. Not feel shame. And. And that was really lovely. And then to be able to be a part of a club that then didn't just kind of accept me and have me on the side, but actually was willing to embrace me so they would work alongside me and get me, you know, extra lessons on the side or to come early to kind of help me to find that place to connect in and belong. And, yeah, they really, I guess, worked hard to. To connect me in in a way and, achieve the goals. And so I think for me now, as someone who's now kind of been a part of the club for five years, I want to now also do the same. And so we kind of just build that culture within us.

Annabelle White [00:25:58] Nicole, your club has consistently been celebrated for creating an inclusive space for people to enjoy sport. What's been the benefit to your club in prioritising inclusion?

Nicole Mugford [00:26:08] Well, you get a trophy number one. That's pretty fun. But I think more than that, obviously more than that is that the league has become known as a place where people can come and be themselves and explore questions. And, you know, we've had members who have wanted to join roller derby, but they weren't sure they were kind of going through a gender identity, crisis or Turning Point. And they weren't sure if they joined. You know, a club, would they be able to play in six months? If they started kind of that journey. And so when they joined, they came to Kingston and they knew that it wouldn't matter if they were male, female, non-binary, non-gender conforming, they would still have a place on the team. And they'd still get training.

Annabelle White [00:27:10] In your role. Can you talk to a little bit more about the benefits the individual might experience when they feel like they're included in sport?

Nicole Mugford [00:27:19] Yeah, I think when they feel included, there's a sense of fun, and a sense of, I guess, achievement and success. They feel like they're thriving. But also they feel, I guess, free from that stress that they have of some of the stereotypes or things that they might get in their workplaces or schools or, other environments. I know for some of our members, they've said that being included in this, in the league, they felt like they, they came knowing who they were. And then because of that, they were actually able to grow into the person that they didn't realise that they wanted to become. And so, you know, people. Felt like they knew more about who they were because they felt included.

Annabelle White [00:28:13] Zoe, Sport has a reputation for, in some cases, being perceived as exclusionary, whether that's true or not true. Some of your recent work as an associate editor for the Journal of Sports Coaching has reflected this need for change. What do we miss out on in sport when we don't prioritise inclusion?

Zoe Avner [00:28:34] I think, you know, to to kind of echo and build on our previous responses and I think you and isolate and marginalise whole segments of the population and, hinder opportunities for them to benefit from, many of the kind of joys, the fun, the affirming experiences that can come through sport. So I think it's, it's really essential to move towards, sport spaces and sport practices that do prioritise inclusion. First and foremost.

Nicole Mugford [00:29:08] And I think, when people are excluded. There's is that sense of people like people's health are impacted. People don't have that sense of social belonging and that mental health that we kind of have talked about, that are and are improvements of being a part of those communities. And so there are whole sections and minority groups then who, don't have the benefits of what that would look like if they were excluded from those communities.

Speaker 1 [00:29:40] Thank you, Zoe and Nicole, both for your time. Some really valuable insights and information tonight. So thank you so much for your time. Thanks for listening. To learn more about community coaching and officiating, head to the Aces Community Coaching and Officiating web pages. My name is out of a white and I look forward to you joining me for the next podcast in the Coaching and Officiating series. If you like today's podcast, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and share this with your team-mates, fellow coaches and officials and friends. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Ngunnawal people. I wish to pay my respects to the traditional custodians and recognise any other people or families with connection to the lands of the ACT and region. I wish to pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge and respect their continuing connection to country.